NOTE: Keep reading Manon Lescaut for our next class, reading Chapters VII to IX, or as close as you can get to that. No questions for this new section, but we will discuss it next week, so expect spoilers!
Otherwise, watch the short video below on the art of William Hogarth, and how he was challenging how his society depicted women in art and fiction. When you finish, respond to the question below in a COMMENT.
After you've watched the video, respond to this following: where do you think our own society falls on the criminal debate? Are our modern-day version of harlots, pickpockets, highwaymen, and rogues born to the breed or made by society? Do we still regard criminals as almost a 'race' rather than a vocation? And is one sex more guility of it than another? Who might be the 'Miss Mary Edwards' of 21st century America?
I actually wrote a paper in my Comp II class about the incarceration rate of women in Oklahoma. Two of my brothers are Oklahoma City Police Officers and I interviewed one of them and asked him who he arrests more. He said he arrests more women than men because women can be easily manipulated to do the guys dirty work. He also said that a lot of the men and women he arrests are mostly what would be considered "lower-class". Mostly everyone that is arrested are people who are below the poverty line. I also read an article that said that a rich white women that can afford a decent lawyer will be less likely to go to jail than a poor white women who can't afford a lawyer. I feel like many people see criminals as race, especially employers who don't hire people who have gotten arrested.
ReplyDeleteWow, this is fascinating, but of course not much different from the realities of 18th century France. Look at the difference between de Greiux's prison experience and Manon's. He is allowed to move around, talk with people, and eventually, has every opportunity to escape--and no one bothers to report him! The same is hardly true for someone like Manon, who can't afford the star treatment, even despite her looks and charm. In the end, it comes down to class and what class affords those who have it. If you're born poor in a bad neighborhood, that alone is an assumption of guilt, leaving you with few 'good' choices to get ahead in the world. I doubt Manon had many career opportunities available to her as a homeless kid on the streets! Strange that de Grieux never seems to ask her about her parents or her life before he found her...
DeleteThere is a national uproar about police profiling and the unwarranted shooting of black men and women. I think that many people have an unfair bias (at least in the town that I grew up in) because of the toxic attitude that some elders had of the Black community. My grandmother was a teacher at an alternative school in Oklahoma City for many years. Over the years, she had young kids of color tell her that they felt like they were only worth everyone's expectation of them. Gang life was often very familiar to these kids, sometimes it even ran in the family. I've never really thought about whether men or women are more susceptible to a life of crime. Women are eager to prove their love through sacrifice and action, and I have many friends with criminal taste in men. I think crime is incredibly romanticized in film and music today. I'm not sure who is considered the "Miss Mary Edwards" of today. Casey Anthony is the most notorious woman of crime I can think of, but she had a much different situation.
ReplyDeleteYes, what they're experiencing is the Catch-22 of existence: if you're born poor in a bad part of town, surrounded by crime, how can you escape becoming a victim of it--or being involved in it? And even if you're innocent, you immediately become a suspect. As a child let loose on the streets, it's hard to imagine anything Manon could have done to avoid her life...and why she's always playing angles and looking for the right man to protect her. de Grieux calls her faithless and obsessed with money, but this is because he never had to be. Like a middle-class American chiding someone who escaped a refugee camp for being a glutton and hoarding food under their pillow. The irony, though, is that (as you say) crime IS romanticized, and largely by books like this that are misunderstood or misinterpreted. Just like people who watch The Godfather and think it's a recruiting video for the mob! Did you not see the ending??? :)
DeleteAmerican society has condemned many innocent people and many actual criminals all the same. In recent times, it has been more of a battle against races rather than sex. A majority of the time it seems that men are almost always the ones who are getting into trouble whether it be sex trafficking, shooting people or other criminal acts. These criminals do not seem to be raised this way nor born this way, they just become a criminal almost out of nowhere. The large fight between blue lives matter or not is an example of this. Are the steps some police take too far while others are not taking enough steps? Should one criminal face death while another does not? It comes to these questions in our modern day society. As for who would be like Miss Mary Edwards, I would think Ghislaine Noelle Marion Maxwell may as well be one of the largest criminals today for the things she has done. While Mary Edwards may have had the ability to gain a small amount of redemption I do not believe Maxwell will have the same chance.
ReplyDeleteYHelm: Although there are many influences that can lead an individual to criminal activity, I believe the modern parole system is focused on keeping people in the prison system rather than encouraging them to be successful contributing citizens. Initially, the goal was to rehabilitate prisoners so they could re-enter society and stay out of jail. However, as the prison system has become more privatized, the emphasis has moved away from rehabilitation to profits. With this type of conflict of interest, it is not surprising that prison sentences become more extreme and often are excessive and not fitting to the crime committed. The 21st century Miss Mary Edwards would have to be the prostituted. Too often underage runaways or trafficked individuals are trapped in prostitution. Shockingly, minors who are arrested are rarely removed from the streets to a safe environment. Instead, they are treated as criminals. It would seem more effective to penalize the buyer in order to limit this activity than to focus on the prostitute.
DeleteYes, this is a great response, especially since we don't really know Manon's story. She does have a brother, but he doesn't seem too interested in helping her out--only in using her money. Since she's 16 when de Greiux meets her, maybe she, too, was thrown into some form of prostitution at an early age by her own parents? How long has she been living on the streets--and why do none of the men who fall for her try to help her? Even de Grieux isn't really helping her...he's just using her for his own ends, and not thinking about the future at all, since he can always walk away...but she will be killed or sent to America!
DeleteThis is for Amily, since I can't seem to respond to her comment (I think Yolanda posted as a response, and blogspot won't let me respond more than once). Yes, in our own country, criminals are not only a race, but are targeted by race, much as they would have been in France if it had been more racially diverse. But even in England at the time, the Irish were seen as degenerates and often pegged for all the crimes, just as gypsies were throughout Europe in general. We seem to have a hard time believing that one group isn't solely the cause of all our problems in life, and the 18th century was little different. The Ghislaine lady is similar in some ways, though she has NO morality at all, whereas Miss Mary Edwards sacrificed her position to save her child. And I wonder whether Ghislaine is really all that disgraced. If she were pardoned, I bet she would be back on her feet in no time. Money would restore all her class and importance, whereas even money couldn't make Mary Edwards respectable in society ever again. The 18th century cared so much more about how things looked, since that's all that stood between them and the gutter.
DeleteLike anything else, there is so much grey area that this topic has become a heated point of discourse in political and social circles for years. However, I will say that from my experience and from my own research (though I am far from an expert), it seems that our society has a tendency to target the already-low lower classes when it comes to criminality. And when a celebrity or person from a higher class is labeled a criminal we allow far more exceptions and excuses for them. So, in a sense, it seems like we typically don’t divide criminals from the rest of society into their own class but society looks at the already established classes and targets the more vulnerable. And when someone from a higher class is caught in a crime, we tend to ask if they were justified or if they should suffer for their crimes far more often than others less financially fortunate. The exception to this rule seems to be when the victims belong to the middle class- the largest group who, by that rule, hold this system in place.
ReplyDeleteSo not much has changed, has it? de Greiux is always treated well in prison, and allowed to basically escape time and time again, though Manon is dealt with much more harshly. We still subscribe to the idea that criminality is bred into class, and that class is a race. I think Prevost is aware of this double-standard just as many writers and artists were at this time. Though not even best-selling books can change the social order! They can just make the rest of us see it for what it is.
DeleteI always try and look at both sides to stories before I really form an opinion over things, the shooting at the protests for example. Facebook is filled with millions of people with the same views on things, but yet they debate each other just to try and be more.. intelligent..?..compassionate..? So, the debate over criminal activity in our society seems like it is getting worse and worse. No one is guilty of doing crimes, but everyone deserves justice. It seems to me that people are born into criminal activity and they grow up not knowing how to get out of the cycle, and they see how their friends and family are perceived by society, so they feel marked for life as that. The song Fancy by Reba really comes to mind when thinking of a modern comparison for women born into prostitution, but make it out with the 'Georgia mansion' and how she 'charmed a king, congressman and an occasional aristocrat' to get to where she wasn't the white trash she was born into.
ReplyDeleteYes, great example; this song could be about Manon herself, couldn't it? As you suggest, it's well documented that those born into poverty and certain areas have a harder time escaping the world that comes with it--or the assumption of some sort of guilt. We at least believe that anyone can change their luck and get an education, get a better job, etc. This wasn't the case in the 18th century: you were who you were born as, without exception. And while Manon can spin the wheel a few times, eventually she'll get unlucky, or old, and her magic will be spent. And then she'll end up right back where she started.
DeleteCTorres: Whew. This is a good question. I feel that there is so many differences with this topic because not that many people see it the same. Personally, I think that the modern-day version of criminals are made by society. The main reason behind that is race. In my opinion, race plays a huge role in the criminal system because people are biased based off of the color of skin. I think that many people in the system look at the color of ones skin and base their judgment off of that. While that is also true, gender in my opinion, plays the next step in that. Women who are "criminals" more than likely had some type of motive behind it. Whether that be revenge, being told to by a man, etc., I feel that they are more than likely to incarcerated than men. When I think of a modern day Miss Mary Edwards, I think of prostitution. The reason I think this is because they are seen as criminals or mistaken as criminals for whatever they do. They're looked down and frowned upon in society.
ReplyDeleteYes, great points...and in Oklahoma, we have more female prisoners than any other state in the US (or so I read in an Oklahoma paper). And it is a kind of hierarchy of guilt, from race down to sex and class (which can all be one in the same, at times). We like to think of our country as a nation of second chances, where you can always change your luck and start again...but we have a hard time forgiving people for their past, especially when that past is written on the skin or on one's speech (stereotyping by accent is particularly prevalent--we assume that if you talk a certain way, you MUST be a criminal).
DeleteI feel that there is still a negative assumption made on people who come from lower class societies and from criminal families. I have more than once heard people say that someone has to be a certain way because everyone else in their family is. I myself come from a very lower class family that has criminals, addicts, etc. It has been assumed that I am just like the rest of them more than once, when that couldn't be father from the truth. As much as I would like to say that I am not like that, I feel that to some degree I associate others with their family backgrounds as well. I feel that there is still a divide among classes, especially for kids in school. Most of the children who come from families who are well off do not associate with children who are from low class ones and vie versa. I think we do still regard criminals as a race of sorts. We tend to look at them all in a different light than others. We also set ourselves apart and look down upon them. I do feel women tend to get more a reprieve due to their sex when it comes to guilt. They tend to be less harsh on them. I honestly can not think of anyone from the 21st century that I would compare to Miss Mary Edwards.
ReplyDeleteGreat response--and very honest. The class divide is very visible, and we attach a morality to class, especially with the gospel of wealth that a lot of people believe in today. We tend to equate poverty with a lack of morals and drive, as if everyone who has money is good and hard-working (ha!). However, this is the world of Manon, where money and a title will open all doors and unlock all prisons. Maybe the surprising thing in the book is how clear-eyed Manon is about this world, and how willing she is to exploit it, knowing that being 'good' will never do her any favors. des Greiux, on the other hand, knows that no matter how bad things get, someone will step in to help him--even complete strangers.
DeleteWhile I do think we often try to associate crime with particular ethnicities, I belive a closer look at the issue reveals the opposite, primarily that our society encourages the evil tendencies that all people already have by propagating ideas like "the American Dream." Often, the results of pursuing this become more of a nightmare, as we realize the pressures of society are often unrealistic and detrimental to an actually healthy quality of life. "Following your heart" and "doing your own thing" can often mean taking what isn't yours or pursuing an illicit relationship, and the very things we praise become those that we will in turn deal out punishment for... with double standards abounding yet swept under the rug. In my opinion, men are more often depicted in the criminal light, but the urge to do evil to another is not determined by gender. However, I think it is definitely helped along by the subliminal messages society projects.
ReplyDeleteI think that our society does a bit of both because I think that America has always been structured corruptly. Many people in America look at criminals as a race and often times its minorities as a whole. From the very beginning, America’s elite has made minorities out to be the criminals because they have segregated them from black, to Latino, to Italian, and Jew, just to name a few, it has been made harder for a lot of them to get out of poverty and unfair situations. Since the Black Lives Matter movement has become much more popular in America the conversation of white privilege has come up. White privilege has everything to do with how our society views criminals from England back in the 1700s to now across the world and in America. I think that men are seen as more guilty of this just because they are still the ones that are on top of the hierarchy in society.
ReplyDeleteI think that Miss Mary Edwards of the 21st Century is a woman who was more famous in the early/mid-1900s, Rebekah Harkness. She was a woman who was born in a middle-class family and then married into wealth, becoming the heir to the Standard Oil fortune, making her one of the wealthiest women in America. Rebekah was an American composer, sculptor, dance patron, and philanthropist who founded the Harkness Ballet. She was known to be the most “shameless” woman in her community in Rhode Island and many would say that she had a “marvelous time ruining everything”. When her husband died many people across America deemed him the last great American dynasty and really tried to make her look horrible in the public eye. She had been humiliated by the press, and most of her fortune had been lost through her “capricious” behavior. However, she is now highly respected within many communities and is a trailblazer for advocating for gender and race equality within the ballet community.
^^^ Callie Farley
DeleteIn terms of where society falls regarding criminals, at least in America, I'd say significant progress has been made towards humanizing incarcerated individuals. Today, may understand that many are born into an environment where crime can be seen as necessary to get further in life; to elaborate, more people comprehend that many individuals are born into underprivileged lives where the same opportunities that exist for others aren't available. Now, this isn't to say that crime has converted into being seen as a necessary evil, just that criminals aren't seen as genetically wired villains, but those who felt like they may have no other choice than to break the law to escape the condition they're in.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, there still exists a lot of negative stigma surrounding criminals. Several people still hold the mindset that all criminals deserve no sympathy, that they should have followed the rules set by society, and that they brought their punishment onto themselves; furthermore, biases towards both gender and race in regards to criminality are still present today. Some are predisposed to believing women are less likely to be criminals than men, or one ethnicity are naturally mischievous compared to another. Neither of these stereotypes are true, of course, but they demonstrate the fact that a lot of false stigma towards criminals has survived.
This is Paul Harris, by the way.
DeleteI definitely think that hypocrisy is still present regarding criminality in our society. For example, on one hand we have the "upper-class" with the list of celebrity names on the Epstein flight log that were followed by radio silence in Hollywood but that have been defended by their fans and others. And on the other hand, people are all too willing to believe that a person who has lived in poverty or who is of certain races is the perpetrator regardless of other possible suspects or evidence. There's been all too many cases of false imprisonment in the past and the present. So, it seems as though a good majority of people believe that you are "born to the breed," but I don't think that it's quite to the point of thinking of criminals as a race. It appears to be more of a sense that if they're born into a situation where they're surrounded by it, then they won't be able to escape it. As for which sex is often seen as more guilty than the other, I don't know that I could answer that. The answer seems to differ depending on which crime has been committed. And if I were to designate anyone as a 'Miss Marry Edwards' of the 21st century, it would be Anne Hathaway who is an actress and UN Women Goodwill Ambassador. She has pushed against the idea that women should be the only ones with parental leave (unpaid) and that men should have none. She is an advocate for paid parental leave for both parents. She challenged stereotyped gender roles and restrictions just like Mary did. And I think that in doing so, she inspired others to push for the same change as well.
ReplyDeleteOkay. So I think most of us would agree that, as a society, our understanding of "criminals" and what they look like, act like, sound like, etc etc is hugely shaped by race, class, and gender. However, I would not say that nothing has changed since the broadly corrupt times of 18th century England; rather, we have the same basic forces of oppression plus a lot of further complicating ideas about class mobility, the American dream, late-stage capitalism, and more. It's not necessarily true anymore that once you're born into a certain state of being - say, if you're born into the foster system - you can never escape, but actually, it IS kind of true, we're just told the opposite! It's all very complicated and frankly usually just serves to heap more blame onto the individual who "fails to transcend" their circumstances rather than putting more resources into social services at a state and federal level.
ReplyDeleteFor a very interesting read on this, I'd recommend this essay, "The Snack Shack Blues", which is by Emily Withnall and lives on gay.medium.com. https://gay.medium.com/the-snack-shack-blues-9b0df6f13042
Withnall writes about the confusion of identifying strongly with the high-poverty, high-crime neighborhood in which she grew up but not having the racial and ethnic identity we usually associate with that, as well as what happens to herself and her family when she attempted to move out and "up" in class. She's trying to give her kids more opportunities than she had, sure, but she also feels profoundly alienated from the social experience in which she grew up, and while she's unsure that it's worth the sacrifice, she also seems to feel that there was no other viable choice. She questions the narratives of "making a better life". To what extent is that story even possible? And who benefits when we all buy into it?
K Young:
ReplyDeleteRight now there is a lot of controversy about criminals and the laws are constantly changing about what sentence gets you thrown in jail/prison and what doesn't. It is hard to understand where our society stands because of the constant changing and the huge difference views of the elderly and the younger population. The definition of a criminal depends on who you ask. I also think that different views portray the different types of criminals. Some would say you are born into being a criminal if you come from a family that has a troubled past, but other times some people are considered criminals based on how they look. I work at a bank here in Ada and a customer handed me their ID the other day and apologized for looking "thuggy" in the picture and proceeded to tell me that his daughter saw the picture the other day and said, "dad, this is why they keep shooting us." and he just so happened to be a black man. It is hard to label what a criminal is, because most of the time people are judged from the outside instead of knowing the truth. I am in no way advocating for murders, rapists, etc,. but if someone is caught stealing because they haven't ate in three days, does that make them a criminal? Some might say yes, it just depends on who is offering their opinion. I don't know if criminals are a "race" but they are definitely a population, men and women both. Male and female criminals are two different things to society. As for a Miss Mary Edwards', it could be any male or female who is slightly different than society wants them to be.