No classes this week, so watch the video below (and comment) and read Books 16,18, & 19, which goes along with this. We'll also talk about Homer: A Very Short Introduction, Chapters 1-4 on Tuesday. Stay warm and see you then!
I think it was important to them because, despite the poem’s age and mythical elements, certain emotions and situations the characters encounter can be seen as quite universal and relatable. For example, the behavior and actions portrayed by Achilles in Book 19 could be seen as important values worthy enough to be passed on to younger generations. On page 190, lines 68-85, Achilles is entreating Agamemnon to bury the hatchet, or perhaps bury the dory, as it were. He laments at the pointlessness and resulting consequences of their anger and admits their hubris will probably be seen as a stain on their reputations forever. He then goes on to say that they must put all that behind them and let go of their pride, for the sake of Greece. I will say, when I was reading this, Achilles’ words came off as somewhat subverted considering the events that led up to them. Between the lines, it’s almost as if Achilles is saying “Okay, I got to throw a proper fit. It suits me to be noble and forgiving now. Onward brothers!” But to be fair, he had just lost his best friend. And that in turn links back to the nobility and honor of it all. Achille’s great rage was tempered by a great loss and then forged into a sense of conviction to honor his friend and, by extension, the Greeks as a whole. For the simple farmers of Greece, I think they could look to their children and say “Remember Achilles? His anger acted as a detriment to his own self. It was his humility that led to victory. So swallow your own pride, forgive your [insert family member’s, friend’s, or acquaintance’s name here], and move on”. I also think this sentiment would be valued by the people hearing it because it coincides with the values of Greece’s collectivistic culture. Where the implications of an individual’s actions should be seen as affecting the “we” of a group rather than simply the solitary “me”.
Yes, I think it's hard to escape the allegorical elements of this poem (which relate to myth), and the attempts of the narrator to place it all in perspective seems to tell us not to take it too literally. It's a story meant to marvel at, but also learn from...and neither the heroes or the gods are supposed to be role models or above reproach. They all screw up--they're all full of hubris!
So, I know it’s a little late to post on this, but I had a bit of an “aha” moment after yesterday’s class that I’m probably a bit too excited about. I really like the idea of Achilles’s actions being driven by love and fear rather than just simple pride, and it made me think of a song titled “Achilles Come Down” by the band Gang of Youths. Rather than being a song specifically about Achilles, it’s more so the artists using the character as a vehicle to represent a distinct theme. It really seems to allude to some of the ideas we discussed yesterday though, and it reminds me of what we’ve talked about regarding the need for myths to be adaptable in order to stand the test of time. One of the most poignant lines in the song is “Today of all days, see, how the most dangerous thing is to love”. I think this is a really powerful sentiment because it is something that multiple generations can understand and relate to, whether it be ancient Greece or present day. The song is a bit on the longer side (7-ish minutes or so), but it’s pretty cool and worth a listen, if anyone is interested.
Darn it, I missed this--somehow I didn't get alerted to your comment! I would have liked to follow up on this in class. :( Too late, now, alas! But a great point, and I love that you're connecting this to other ideas in our culture. Clever!
I feel like this story is told from generation to generation because of the need of perseverance from both the Trojans and the Greeks. They both want to win this battle and have been fighting for many years. Many times they have wanted to give up or tried to find the easy way out. For example, when Paris and Menelaus fought over Helen and the winner of that duel determined the winner of the war. That was taking the easy way out and it didn’t work because the war continued. That is a life lesson that comes from the Iliad. Taking the easy way out doesn’t always lead you to success. Another life lesson in this poem is the importance of friendship. For example, when Achilles finds out Patroclus died, he became very upset and decided to join the war again to get revenge for his dear friend. Even though revenge is never the right answer, it shows us how much Achilles cared about Patroclus.
Great ideas here--particularly the idea that honor demands a sacrifice, and you can't simply pack it in when it becomes difficult (though I wonder how much the poet really sympathizes with the war, since it's utterly pointless, and the gods force them to participate). Friendship is an even more important one, because we see several characters place friendship and hospitality above the war and above honor itself. Better to serve a friend nobly than to kill someone and go down in the history books. The Greeks desired fame and fortune, but not at all costs...they had strict values which are probably more the values of Homer's time than the people in the poem (I believe many actions and customs in the poem are anachronistic, which we'll discuss in class).
Kate Robinson: One thing I've started to take note of in the Iliad are the italicized sections. I'm not sure if it's just showing that it's closer to the original text or something else. Either way, I've noticed that most of the sections in italics read like proverbs. They take what is happening with the story and use metaphorical situations to describe them. Lots of them focus on animals, like lions, wolves, and other carnivorous animals. They do a good job of describing what is happening in the story, but most of them also work well when applied to other situations in life. For example, in book 16, lines 163-168 discuss a boar and lion. It ends by saying, "the boar pants hard, but the lion comes out on top." This could describe Hector and Patroclus, but could also mean that even the strong always have someone who is stronger. I think these 'proverbs,' pass values like strength, honor, and self-knowledge down to future generations, making the story just as applicable as it was when it was first told.
Yes, these are the similes that Graziosi discusses, and which I believe were added at a later point to relate more directly to the audience...probably they were simply asides that the poet made up on the spot, as a way of connecting with a bored or restless audience, the way I might throw in a few curse words or jump on a desk to keep people's attention. But these became popular, other poets did it, and it gradually became part of the fabric of the story. If nothing else, it shows us that the audience is NOT of this world...that there are two distinct cultures here, the one in the poem, and the one listening to the poem. And I think we're meant to feel superior to some of the characters, despite their great powers, for being stupid, prideful, and willful. It's a poem that makes you think, "now don't you feel smart for seeing what Achilles in his blindness couldn't?"
The Iliad has many heroic characters and lessons that can be passed through generations. For example, even though women might have been an afterthought, and later added to The Iliad, having strong womens’ voices throughout the text creates connections between the reader and the poem. When the new recreation of Wonder Woman was released, I went to the movies and watched it. When I left, I was overcome with a sense of satisfaction because this strong, female superhero was able to fight for the good on the Earth. She is a hero that many women can look up to. Not because they believe they will have superpowers one day, but because she saves people’s lives by taking action based on her morals. I think The Iliad’s importance and relevance today is based on the strong females throughout the text. Another character that makes The Iliad relevant today is Hector because he never gives up. When the war got tough and treacherous, he never backed down. His heroism reflected in the poem creates a strong character that many want to relate to. The statement Chloe made about Achilles being a person to remind your children about relates to Hector, too. The Greeks could also say to their children, “Be like Hector who was strong, loyal, and never gave up on what mattered to him.”
I think that the main reason that this myth was applicable to the farmers at the time is the same reason that it is applicable to us. The common thing about myths is that they are timeless, regardless of when they were written. The same way that we can find characters in the myth to relate to, the farmers at the time could do the same. For example, the way that Achilles holds a grudge is very applicable to individuals such as myself, in todays times. We can see how that would be applicable to other people at the time it was written. Another reason why this poem was so appealing to everyday farmers is because it offered them a break from their everyday lives. They could watch this as entertainment, as sort of a break in the action. Even though the farmers and the characters in the play aren't on the same social status, humans are humans. The characters in the Iliad are very barbaric, humans to this day are still barbaric. Humans do not change as much over time as is perceived. Isaac Bellinger
The Iliad is important because it communicates more than an epic battle and the deaths of heroes, it communicates the values of bravery, honor, and sacrifice. We see characters like Hector, who sacrificed his life for his people and characters like Achilles, who acts out of love and grief, when charging into battle after the death of Patrocules. The grandeur of this war provides a great deal of entertainment, but I think it’s also really interesting to see how Homer depicts the Greeks and Trojans as emotional people. This work provided the Greeks with a text they could relate to even if they were just farmers, they could use this text to imagine the bravery of their ancestors and how the text related to their heritage. Even though these characters can be petty and shallow, they teach us a lesson about sacrifice (Hector sacrificing his life with his family without a second thought to protect his people) that is something to be valued and passed down.
I think that these myths have been told from generation to generation because they communicate so much more than just an epic battle story-- they showcase the values that are important to the ancient Greeks. Like Gloria mentions, bravery, honor, and sacrifice where obviously very important traits to them. The boys were supposed to grow up into these amazing heroes that embody what it means to be greek. Now, we can look back on these stories and see how these "war stories" are really just a detail in a much grander story. For example, I think of my favorite book series, Throne of Glass by Sarah J. Maas. On the surface these books look like just another modern epic battle war story where the characters have to fight to save their kingdom, but that's not really why people love it and keep rereading it. The same can go for The Iliad and other stories alike, they aren't told over and over again because of the war scenes, they are told over and over again because of the characters and the readers ability to read it and go "that's me" (or just because you adore the characters). These characters make mistakes, but they also teach lessons and provide an overall good model for what the greeks want to represent.
I think it was important to them because, despite the poem’s age and mythical elements, certain emotions and situations the characters encounter can be seen as quite universal and relatable. For example, the behavior and actions portrayed by Achilles in Book 19 could be seen as important values worthy enough to be passed on to younger generations. On page 190, lines 68-85, Achilles is entreating Agamemnon to bury the hatchet, or perhaps bury the dory, as it were. He laments at the pointlessness and resulting consequences of their anger and admits their hubris will probably be seen as a stain on their reputations forever. He then goes on to say that they must put all that behind them and let go of their pride, for the sake of Greece. I will say, when I was reading this, Achilles’ words came off as somewhat subverted considering the events that led up to them. Between the lines, it’s almost as if Achilles is saying “Okay, I got to throw a proper fit. It suits me to be noble and forgiving now. Onward brothers!” But to be fair, he had just lost his best friend. And that in turn links back to the nobility and honor of it all. Achille’s great rage was tempered by a great loss and then forged into a sense of conviction to honor his friend and, by extension, the Greeks as a whole. For the simple farmers of Greece, I think they could look to their children and say “Remember Achilles? His anger acted as a detriment to his own self. It was his humility that led to victory. So swallow your own pride, forgive your [insert family member’s, friend’s, or acquaintance’s name here], and move on”. I also think this sentiment would be valued by the people hearing it because it coincides with the values of Greece’s collectivistic culture. Where the implications of an individual’s actions should be seen as affecting the “we” of a group rather than simply the solitary “me”.
ReplyDeleteYes, I think it's hard to escape the allegorical elements of this poem (which relate to myth), and the attempts of the narrator to place it all in perspective seems to tell us not to take it too literally. It's a story meant to marvel at, but also learn from...and neither the heroes or the gods are supposed to be role models or above reproach. They all screw up--they're all full of hubris!
DeleteSo, I know it’s a little late to post on this, but I had a bit of an “aha” moment after yesterday’s class that I’m probably a bit too excited about. I really like the idea of Achilles’s actions being driven by love and fear rather than just simple pride, and it made me think of a song titled “Achilles Come Down” by the band Gang of Youths. Rather than being a song specifically about Achilles, it’s more so the artists using the character as a vehicle to represent a distinct theme. It really seems to allude to some of the ideas we discussed yesterday though, and it reminds me of what we’ve talked about regarding the need for myths to be adaptable in order to stand the test of time. One of the most poignant lines in the song is “Today of all days, see, how the most dangerous thing is to love”. I think this is a really powerful sentiment because it is something that multiple generations can understand and relate to, whether it be ancient Greece or present day. The song is a bit on the longer side (7-ish minutes or so), but it’s pretty cool and worth a listen, if anyone is interested.
DeleteDarn it, I missed this--somehow I didn't get alerted to your comment! I would have liked to follow up on this in class. :( Too late, now, alas! But a great point, and I love that you're connecting this to other ideas in our culture. Clever!
DeleteI feel like this story is told from generation to generation because of the need of perseverance from both the Trojans and the Greeks. They both want to win this battle and have been fighting for many years. Many times they have wanted to give up or tried to find the easy way out. For example, when Paris and Menelaus fought over Helen and the winner of that duel determined the winner of the war. That was taking the easy way out and it didn’t work because the war continued. That is a life lesson that comes from the Iliad. Taking the easy way out doesn’t always lead you to success. Another life lesson in this poem is the importance of friendship. For example, when Achilles finds out Patroclus died, he became very upset and decided to join the war again to get revenge for his dear friend. Even though revenge is never the right answer, it shows us how much Achilles cared about Patroclus.
ReplyDeleteGreat ideas here--particularly the idea that honor demands a sacrifice, and you can't simply pack it in when it becomes difficult (though I wonder how much the poet really sympathizes with the war, since it's utterly pointless, and the gods force them to participate). Friendship is an even more important one, because we see several characters place friendship and hospitality above the war and above honor itself. Better to serve a friend nobly than to kill someone and go down in the history books. The Greeks desired fame and fortune, but not at all costs...they had strict values which are probably more the values of Homer's time than the people in the poem (I believe many actions and customs in the poem are anachronistic, which we'll discuss in class).
DeleteKate Robinson:
ReplyDeleteOne thing I've started to take note of in the Iliad are the italicized sections. I'm not sure if it's just showing that it's closer to the original text or something else. Either way, I've noticed that most of the sections in italics read like proverbs. They take what is happening with the story and use metaphorical situations to describe them. Lots of them focus on animals, like lions, wolves, and other carnivorous animals. They do a good job of describing what is happening in the story, but most of them also work well when applied to other situations in life. For example, in book 16, lines 163-168 discuss a boar and lion. It ends by saying, "the boar pants hard, but the lion comes out on top." This could describe Hector and Patroclus, but could also mean that even the strong always have someone who is stronger. I think these 'proverbs,' pass values like strength, honor, and self-knowledge down to future generations, making the story just as applicable as it was when it was first told.
Yes, these are the similes that Graziosi discusses, and which I believe were added at a later point to relate more directly to the audience...probably they were simply asides that the poet made up on the spot, as a way of connecting with a bored or restless audience, the way I might throw in a few curse words or jump on a desk to keep people's attention. But these became popular, other poets did it, and it gradually became part of the fabric of the story. If nothing else, it shows us that the audience is NOT of this world...that there are two distinct cultures here, the one in the poem, and the one listening to the poem. And I think we're meant to feel superior to some of the characters, despite their great powers, for being stupid, prideful, and willful. It's a poem that makes you think, "now don't you feel smart for seeing what Achilles in his blindness couldn't?"
DeleteBrady Pyle
ReplyDeleteThe Iliad has many heroic characters and lessons that can be passed through generations. For example, even though women might have been an afterthought, and later added to The Iliad, having strong womens’ voices throughout the text creates connections between the reader and the poem. When the new recreation of Wonder Woman was released, I went to the movies and watched it. When I left, I was overcome with a sense of satisfaction because this strong, female superhero was able to fight for the good on the Earth. She is a hero that many women can look up to. Not because they believe they will have superpowers one day, but because she saves people’s lives by taking action based on her morals. I think The Iliad’s importance and relevance today is based on the strong females throughout the text.
Another character that makes The Iliad relevant today is Hector because he never gives up. When the war got tough and treacherous, he never backed down. His heroism reflected in the poem creates a strong character that many want to relate to. The statement Chloe made about Achilles being a person to remind your children about relates to Hector, too. The Greeks could also say to their children, “Be like Hector who was strong, loyal, and never gave up on what mattered to him.”
I think that the main reason that this myth was applicable to the farmers at the time is the same reason that it is applicable to us. The common thing about myths is that they are timeless, regardless of when they were written. The same way that we can find characters in the myth to relate to, the farmers at the time could do the same. For example, the way that Achilles holds a grudge is very applicable to individuals such as myself, in todays times. We can see how that would be applicable to other people at the time it was written. Another reason why this poem was so appealing to everyday farmers is because it offered them a break from their everyday lives. They could watch this as entertainment, as sort of a break in the action. Even though the farmers and the characters in the play aren't on the same social status, humans are humans. The characters in the Iliad are very barbaric, humans to this day are still barbaric. Humans do not change as much over time as is perceived.
ReplyDeleteIsaac Bellinger
Gloria Evans
ReplyDeleteThe Iliad is important because it communicates more than an epic battle and the deaths of heroes, it communicates the values of bravery, honor, and sacrifice. We see characters like Hector, who sacrificed his life for his people and characters like Achilles, who acts out of love and grief, when charging into battle after the death of Patrocules. The grandeur of this war provides a great deal of entertainment, but I think it’s also really interesting to see how Homer depicts the Greeks and Trojans as emotional people. This work provided the Greeks with a text they could relate to even if they were just farmers, they could use this text to imagine the bravery of their ancestors and how the text related to their heritage. Even though these characters can be petty and shallow, they teach us a lesson about sacrifice (Hector sacrificing his life with his family without a second thought to protect his people) that is something to be valued and passed down.
I think that these myths have been told from generation to generation because they communicate so much more than just an epic battle story-- they showcase the values that are important to the ancient Greeks. Like Gloria mentions, bravery, honor, and sacrifice where obviously very important traits to them. The boys were supposed to grow up into these amazing heroes that embody what it means to be greek. Now, we can look back on these stories and see how these "war stories" are really just a detail in a much grander story. For example, I think of my favorite book series, Throne of Glass by Sarah J. Maas. On the surface these books look like just another modern epic battle war story where the characters have to fight to save their kingdom, but that's not really why people love it and keep rereading it. The same can go for The Iliad and other stories alike, they aren't told over and over again because of the war scenes, they are told over and over again because of the characters and the readers ability to read it and go "that's me" (or just because you adore the characters). These characters make mistakes, but they also teach lessons and provide an overall good model for what the greeks want to represent.
ReplyDelete