Be sure to read the next four books (or get as close as you can), and watch the video below (16 minutes). The response question is at the end as usual, but you need to listen for it, since I don't write it on the Powerpoint. However, I think you'll catch it pretty easily. Enjoy!
I like Wilson’s use of “complicated” the most. I think both “cunning” and “resourceful” are a bit too narrow when it comes to describing Odysseus’s character, and I also agree that Fagles’s and Pope’s word choices beat around the bush a bit too much. Complicated is great because, by definition, it is an adjective that lets you know this character is going to be multifaceted. It denotes neither good nor evil, and it helps us keep in mind that the reasoning behind Odysseus’s actions may be varied. I think Odysseus proves to be a complicated man in Book 11 when he is communing with the various ghosts in the undergloom. The ghost of Agamemnon, in particular, asks Odysseus about the fate of his own son, Orestes. Very bluntly and to the point, Odysseus answers “Son of Atreus, why ask me this? I have no idea whether he is alive or dead, And it is not good to speak words empty as wind” (11. 481-483). I think this is interesting because we have witnessed numerous occasions prior to this in which Odysseus has bestowed prettied words upon the people around him. He has also shown a readiness to speak in a supplicating manner when is suits him. His statement to Agamemnon just seems a little out of character, and it makes me question the exact reasoning behind it. Perhaps Odysseus is choosing to be utterly truthful in this moment because, as Agamemnon is deceased, there is nothing to gain from mollifying a ghost. Or perhaps, his honesty comes from some amount of respect that is reserved for either Agamemnon himself or for the dead in general. In this instance we can see Odysseus as a wholly two-faced individual, or as someone who values sincerity as something only a select few deserve. (And as a side note, this whole idea can act as a sort of juxtaposition to Agamemnon’s whole claim of “You just can’t trust these women nowadays, man.”)
ReplyDeleteI think this is a great word, too, mostly because you really don't know what to make of him. He's clever, powerful, brave, and pretty damn wily. But he's also cruel, greedy, lustful, and as we see later, pretty vicious. So he's "complicated," a hero who you can never completely pin down, or really know if you should admire him. And yes, this passage is great, because he is ALWAYS speaking words as empty as wind--he has no problem blowing as much hot air as possible. His words are often called "winged words," since they fly right into people's minds, and they are the most potent arrow in his quiver. If he refuses to speak, you can be sure he has an ulterior motive!
DeleteKate Robinson:
ReplyDeleteI like the description that describes Odysseus as, "resourceful." Although resourceful often has a more positive connotation, I think it fits him well. I am of the strong opinion that most of what Odysseus says is likely a lie (or at best, twisted a bit for his own gain). However, one of Odysseus' best resources seems to be his ability to swing things in his favor. When he sits down to ask different people for favors, this seems to be when he uses it best. In book 9, as he's sitting with Lord Alcinous and his family, the poem states, "Odysseus, his great mind teeming," (9.1). As he is about to tell the story of how he got there, his mind was teeming. In my opinion, this does not sound like a man who is about to tell the entire truth. Instead, it sounds like a man who needs help, and is ready to tell a great story to convince those around him that he deserves it. Odysseus is a man of many resources, but I think the one best used, is his ability to lie.
Great response: I like this, too, since in a world where everyone is a great warrior or a half-god, only your words would set you apart. So he uses every resource his words allow him, from flattery to deceit to storytelling. He often has what the poem calls "winged words," which are words which fly from his mouth to other people's hearts and minds. And resourceful suggests both possibilities of his art--the good and the evil.
DeleteTaylor Johnson
ReplyDeleteI think the best word used to describe Odysseus would be “complicated.” I like how broad this word is. I don’t think Odeysus can be simplified by words like "cunning" or "resourceful." Odysseus makes decisions that are confusing and at times seemingly uncharacteristic. It is hard to figure out his motives and personality. It seems every decision he makes could be looked at in two ways. In some ways, he seems incredibly heroic. In other ways, he seems immoral and almost cowardly. For example, he is praised for how he cleverly defeated the cyclops Polyphemus. For this, he was deemed a hero. While he did defeat the beast, he also was the one who led his men to the monster. He also allowed many of his men to die at the hands of the cyclops. This makes him seem selfish. In this way he is complicated. He is not solely good or bad. He seems to be torn in two directions, and I wonder if he even understands his own desires. I also feel that a man of twists and turns would be an excellent descriptor.
Yes, this one certainly fits, since he is many things at many times. We could almost argue that several writes wrote his character from different times and perspectives. So maybe he's a composite character, representing different generations' ideas of what makes a hero. Maybe the true cunning came later, and he was more squarely heroic at first? Hard to say. He is enormously selfish, though, as we see throughout the book...there's no woman he won't sleep with, no honor he won't take for himself, and no treasure he won't steal. And for all his bad luck, he never really has to pay for it (his men do!).
DeleteGloria Evans:
ReplyDeleteOdysseus has shown characteristics that support all of these descriptions, but I think the best way to describe Odysseus is cunning. We see Odysseus frequently fool his enemies throughout the work and no matter how messy a situation gets, he doesn’t lose his cool. I would also describe Odysseus as cunning because he does not react emotionally, he reacts in calculated ways that will save the majority of his men. Instead of becoming emotional to save one of “favorites”, he often instructs his men to leave behind the ones that are dying brutal deaths. My favorite scene of Odysseus’s cunning is when he tells the cyclops that his name is Noman. Maybe I’m a little slow, but I didn’t get it until after the cyclops called out “Noman is killing me by some kind of trick!”
Overall, I agree with you that he is cunning, since he's always looking for the angles, and is able to outsmart most of his opponents (with a little help from the gods!). Yet many people don't think he's cunning at all, such as the kind of the Phaecians, who says "we do not take you/for the sort of liar and cheat the dark earth breeds/among men everywhere, telling tall tales.mo man could ever test for himself." And yet, much of the poem shows him to be just this kind of person, doesn't it? However, he does act emotionally many times...in fact, his men have to restrain him from killing the Cyclops while he's sleeping because they explain that they could never raise the stone blocking the entrance. And at other times, he needs to be talked out of acting in rage (and his final taunting of the Cyclops is very emotional, since he didn't need to do it, and they begged him not to!).
DeleteI feel that the term that best describes Odysseus is resourceful. Most people would describe the term as making use of different things around you that helps you to achieve a goal that you previously could not accomplish. However, Odysseus seems to take this definition a step further by using his own men or people as his resources. In book 9 we see that Odysseus and his men completely destroy the town of Ismaros. After doing so Odysseus divides the rations from the treasure that they had seized to his men evenly. What makes this resourceful to me is the fact that he uses whatever and whoever he can to eventually get what he wants out of the situations that he may find himself in. Another thing that proves that Odysseus is in fact resourceful is the way that he gets the Cyclops drunk so he that he can get what he wants from the Cyclops. He tricks the Cyclops by using the Wine and eventually takes advantage of him and gets what he wants in the end.
ReplyDeleteYes, great point--he is resourceful with whatever he has on hand, and for much of the poem, that is his men. They are
Delete'materials' for him to use and sacrifice to make sure he lives to tell his story. Honestly, could he have defeated the Cyclops without several of his men dying first? Or Circe? As cunning as he is, it seems he needs several people to lay down their lives for him to buy him the necessary time to formulate a strategy--or simply to run away. And most of the time, these are the very men telling him NOT to go!
The term ‘cunning’ makes me think of Odysseus having more of a mischievous characteristic about him, and although we do see he is capable of it with the Trojan Horse, I think he is more complicated than that. In Book 8 line 175 states “So too Odysseus, pitiful in his grief.” (296). This grief is from his flashbacks from the events of the Trojan Horse and show his remorse for killing all of the people in the city. His crying for those deaths shows he is more complicated than it seems, because he does have a soft side. Him crying on Calypsos beach shows that he is devoted to his home and his family, and ready to get back home to them. Despite his journey and all the obstacles he faces, he is just trying to conform to the situations to make it home alive and doing so he will have to act different to all the different people he encounters. This paints him in various lights that can show the complicated situations he is in through his personality.
ReplyDeleteYes, and if he is 'cunning,' than that means we can never really trust what he says OR does. He was crying on the beach, but only when Hermes arrived...an act? He didn't seem to be trying to get home earlier, even though he had the means, and Calypso was willing to help him. And with Circe, he had to be reminded by his crew that it was time to go. But he cunningly paints both women as witches and captors, in order to hide his own motives. WE can admire him, but we can't trust him since his modus operandi is to spread his own fame and tell his own story--the way HE wants it to be told.
DeleteI think that the term 'resourceful' fits Odysseus the best because he somehow makes everything convenient for his own narrative. Maybe he isn't exactly two faced, but I think any other term mentioned gives him a little too much credit than what he might actually deserve. Odysseus is an unreliable narrator and he often plays the victim in the story, but isn't the story supposed to be about the 'hero' Odysseus? I think that this is because he doesn't want us to think that he is a bad guy, so he kind of embellishes the truth and twists it to be in his favor. This could trick some people, maybe especially early readers of the text, into thinking that all of these misfortunes happened to him, oh but despite all of those things he does actually emerge prosperous... Additionally, I think that Odysseus is very egotistical and really just straight up selfish. He mentions things about his wife and child, but never names them. He is always TELLING the readers that he wants to go home, but his actions seem quite the opposite. He even tries to make it seem like he is the hero of this story and then will subtilty mention that him and his crew just ransacked a random village, killed all the men and raped all the women. It makes me wonder why, but then I remember that he just can't help but a lot "brag" on himself for these things. Everything seems just a little too good to be true and Odysseus makes sure that he is the victim in all of the shortcomings of the story.
ReplyDeleteYes, I like the idea that he often gets too much credit for his acumen, whereas he is often saved by his crew or the gods. At best, he is resourceful, using his extreme selfishness and self-preservation to survive. And you're also right to point out that he never talks about his wife and child beyond mentioning them, and never by name. He is more interested in spreading his fame at every opportunity. ANd while he does have some amazing stories to tell, and he IS a very cunning character, that doesn't make us like him--even if we do admire him, somewhat grudgingly.
DeleteBrady Pyle
ReplyDeleteOdysseus is resourceful because he always uses the tools that are around him to survive. For example, when he is stuck in the Cyclops’ den, he knows that there is no escaping through the door in his human form. Therefore, he uses the resources around him by hiding him and his men under the bellies of the sheep that are herding out of the cave. He also shows his resourceful skills by making a plan with no physical objects. For example, he tells the cyclops that his name is “Noman” which is a witty and clever step that helps set up their escape. Another time that Odysseus shows how he can be resourceful is when he sends his men to do the hard work. When they reach any new island, he sends his men to investigate because he doesn't want to die himself. This is an extremely selfish thing to do, but it keeps him alive to tell stories of his travel. Not everything that he did was morally right, but he did use his mind to come up with quick solutions. I find it very interesting that Eurylochus is always questioning the choices that Odysseus makes. While he still does as he is told, Eurylochus knows that Odysseus does not do the right thing because he always sends his loyal men to be guinea pigs in the new islands and he keeps secrets from the men (the bag of wind). Part of me hopes that Eurylochus gets his revenge throughout the poem even though I doubt he does because Odysseus is the narrator.
Good response--a hero has to be resourceful for two reasons: 1. he has to survive (as you point out), or else he dies and that's the end of his glory, and 2. he needs to give bards and storytellers great feats to sing about! He isn't the strongest hero, and he's not the son of a god, so his claim to fame has to be his wits. In this way, he's a much more human hero than Achilles, since he shows us that anyone can be a hero with a little cunning--well, a LOT of cunning! But that doesn't mean we have to like him for it!
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